This interview, titled "The McTavish," originally ran in a 1969 issue of Surfing World. There was no author credit. McTavish was 25 at the time.

Why do you think so many people are turning on?

Well, I think you just have to investigate the incredible complexities of all the various layers of society and the directions it has gone ever since the world began.

It will go two ways because I think there's a lot of people who are realising or finding that the natural speed of life is one that is completely unaffected by drugs, including alcohol and tobacco, including preservatives in foods including white flour if you want to go that far, but I mean including all of the doctored and tampered with preparations by society. The only natural speed in life is the one that's fuelled up by natural foods and natural living and this counts out marijuana too in my opinion, which is a natural weed but still counts it out, you know, because it seems to distort the natural speed of life.

Don't you think you can turn on by listening to some bop or doing things that you really dig?

I don't think you can get the same sensation as a chemically stimulated thing, but the chemically stimulated thing is not a natural thing, I think it is, well, the experiences that I've ever gained from acid are probably things that we are all destined to experience some time in our spiritual advancement, at some level of appreciation which is going to come as a natural gift at some time, and I think that, well, I think that acid is just a glimpse into the future of what can be and almost reassuring the promise of gifts to come, just going on with life, and I think that it's the only good experience in acid and right after that I've not taken any for a couple of years.

It's an escape. A corny
phrase, but it really is.

Just like going to the pub every night and forgetting about the wife and kids at home and the realities

and the real things you're supposed to face. May as well go and get stoned, it's just the same result really. It is a more complete result, because you do go into your mind more but it's really a distorted view of things. Drugs do distort your view and yet, you only really appreciate that when you don't take them for quite a while, then you start to find the natural speed of life returning and you seem to be able to be confronted with situations and be able to understand and handle them much better than you could when you were stoned. You know, if anything I am antidrug, it's a funny category to be put in.

Do you think that you have have to try it to understand it?

No, definitely not you
don't have to try it.

A. Because it's like meditation, it's like a natural thing which can take you where you want to go. Surfing can clean your head of confusing thoughts; when

you do go surfing your mind's involved with a simple thing which absorbs your body and mind and takes your head away from the confusion. When you're in the water you leave the water cleansed,

I get stoned going surfing more than I get it from anything else. If I go surfing in the morning I feel high all day, I do, I just feel cleansed and every thought enters my mind cleanly and leaves it cleanly and you react naturally to situations because your head isn't cluttered with everything. Surfing is like a big scrubbing brush for your head.

I am sure it gets much more complex than that, but that is a basic reason that calls everyone to surfing, I mean, other people may have other reasons as well, but that is one good basic reason why anyone surfs.

Do you think a person should be committed to doing some one thing?

A. Well, I don't think they can help but be committed, I think everyone is committed. If you aren't

committed to something, you're just committed to living your life and confronting situations, you've got to do it. I mean, you've got to be confronted with bad situations and bummers and so on, and then you're committed to overcome them or fail, just bail out and give up. So I think everyone is committed. I'm committed as much as anyone. I'm committed to living my life which is, I find, at times to be an overwhelming task, that's what we're here for.

How far out would you
like to go on a wave?

I love riding deep in tubes and I look at a photograph of Pipeline and I can see myself back inside so far and yet still in complete control, not driving out of the tube but holding back in there maouvering back in the tube

rolling around on the concaves back inside there and even riding waves. You know the part when the tube comes down when you're inside, there's a little explosion that, from the tube or I should say curl, hitting the face of the wave, and it comes back up inside.

I have ridden that force once. You know when the curl comes down there's an explosion goes out towards the beach, and an explosion goes inside.

I don't think photos have shown this. I haven't seen any of Greenough's photos inside the tube that have shown this.

But you can see any photo shot down the centre of the tube, where the curl's actually hitting the water. There's a little wave that goes back up inside to the depths of the tube. On one wave at Lennox I got caught in it, it was like a pair of scissors and I was caught between the wave and this little

wave. I was sitting in the wedge and in there for 4 seconds, I thought it was going to be a close-out. I thought I was in a hopeless position. I was 20 feet behind the mouth of the tube. After riding around that territory — wow!

S.W. I guess everyone's got
their speciality.

McT. Sure, the other day I was watching Col Smith and his thing is incredible with those re-entries.

When have you reached your absolute highest point?

It's hard to say, well the strongest flash back into my memory into thinking back to my past, was deep in at one tube at Narrabeen, so I guess that must qualify.

I'm looking for power and that pocket. In junk surf I look for power, anything to get me moving.

how incredible his shapes really were. I've gone whole hog in his direction now. It's very simple, just the flat planing area with the fin giving the drive. He's incredible! The guy is the clearest thinking, simplest person. On everything, he's a remarkable person, an inspiration to everyone that meets him.

There's no people there to take all the waves. It's getting a lot of people on the coast nowadays.

Why do you continually break away from the surfing system and head for places in the country like Angourie?

Well, as I said before, I find I can't get enough gun in Sydney because I'm too busy getting involved in these little circles, like these little people games whereas, the real things that really count to me I

S.W. Yeah, you can see him setting those re-entries up.

McT. This is not so much my trip. I'm looking for a sucky part where I can get up into it.

How much has Greenough been an influence on you as far as shapes go?

A lot the last few months, not so much before, because this winter is the first winter in 5 years I haven't spent with him and I was watching what he was doing from a detached point of view and I saw

get done in the country. Although I mightn't wake up until 9 o'clock in the morning and go to bed at 8 o'clock at night, I still get more things done in a day up there even if it's just a walk along the beach. Or I might shape one board in hours, but at least it's my own time. Everything's your own up there — It's real. Sure, you might plant some vegetables, but that's a very real thing. To me it is more real than going and seeing a dozen movies down here or going to the lightshow and a band, and going for a junk surf in the afternoon, and that sort of thing.

A. No I don't. I just think it's a very good one. I can't say what wave I think is the best because they're all different, it's just like comparing people

Oh, I think it's an incredible idea. Well, where we're sitting, at Brownwater now, would be an incredible place for it.

You get southerly offshore here 3 days a week and the banks, well, it's just rat-shit out there.

But with a bit of cement laid around it'd get a good swell, good wind. It would be incredible.

What are your ideas on the KA-CHOOMP machines (man-made surfs)?

Well, the one I saw in Arizona was terrible, because it was designed by some 30 year old guy who had never been in the water in his life and the $6,000,000 donated by the hair bleach company could have been put to very good use in the same location, with a better design. They could have made a perfect peeling

right with the machinery they used if they just made one simple change in their design. Given a triangular pool instead of a, well — I don't know what shape it is. It goes along with a big knob on it. They just wasted that $6,000,000.

Would you like to be involved in producing a machine like this?

I'd be stoked to work with the idea. I wouldn't like to work with the construction of it. I'd just like to give ideas or discuss ideas with guys about it. I'd be really stoked in fact.

Oh — It's money you know, it does involve money and I'm terrible with money.

Q. How do you think one would go out here

I don't think it's necessary, because it's such a coastal population.

I think a better idea would be to re-develop the bottom, like out here would be incredible...................

Oh, just take a couple of bucks for the day. The people we get in here could surf all day at a dozen different reefs.

You could have a Rincon through there, and a Sunset Peak outside, and in here would be just tiny Malibu type waves.

You'd have good lefts over there. You could fit 5 or 6 blokes on here and you could carry about 200 surfers easily to just take the strain off all the breaks around the place.

Why are you going to the States when you hate the place so much?

Oh, I don't know. Yeah! Well money's got to speak you know. I can sacrifice, I'll just put up with 6 months or whatever you're obliged to do. I can do it, but that is just another bummer I've got to confront, but I can confront it.

How long before surfing will become saturated out here, like in the States?

Well, I don't know. I really can't say. I can see it every year up in the country. I see it more because a couple of years ago it was totally uncrowded, now I see a lot of cars around and it's very lucky to get a surf by yourself up there. You know, you pull up at Lennox in the morning, you used to be by yourself 5 days a week and wouldn't go near it at weekends just so you wouldn't attract the crowds to it. That was a just a year and a half ago and now everyone's mobile and everyones stoked and people are getting enough money to support themselves in the bush somehow, and the city seems to be less crowded than it was a

But the waves seem worse than a few years back too.

If you could set up the perfect wave how would it be?

It wouldn't be a perfect peel; have to have a perfect wall but with sections and things making it look imperfect. Like sections folding and dropping, parts that suck out. A wave with a kind of beat like rock, then the wave would be like the rhythm, you know, like bass and drums and what you'd do on it is like the guitar working with that rhythm. There's quite a limit to what you can do on a simple thing, not much you can do on it.

You can go up or down or on a straight line along it virtually. Whereas there are sections and pieces that you have to interplay with, more thrills in it.

Like, you can set up deeper rights, because there are pieces in it that are going to speed up, so you put yourself in it late and speed it up and you get tube through that piece.

You come out on the end of it and you just whip this cut-back back onto it again. So I think a wave that stops and starts in sections and drops, size about 6' to 12', or in that region. Waves of that size coming in very hollow in spots — and medium hollow in rest of it with a real nice 3' shore break.

Rincon! Rincon itself is just sheer perfection. The common interpetration of perfection is, a perfect peel. Outside on the indicator, which is bigger, there are various side- washes working on it. It is a very interesting break, the most enjoyable surf I have ever seen. Although, I've seen Lennox on days which is just the same as that, with certain side- washes working on it — but it gets the same as that.

Also, I am very attracted towards peaks, all kinds of Hawaiian peaks. First Velzy Land and Small Sunset and Pupukea, all get some kind of peak formation. Also Yagen and a couple more spots in Queensland. These places are incredible 'cos a peak you can set up and they'll give you waves almost the same. So you'll get the feel of it really easy, and you can set your rights deeper and deeper every time until finally after a couple of hours in the water every wave inches back into the tube. I've never been to Yagan and not got tubed. They just peel down the beach and you get yourself into them . .. Yeah!

The young kids are doing some pretty radical things. What do you think?

Yeah! Well yesterday I was looking at the guys at Narrabeen and I could see what they were attempting on every wave and they're pulling those things off. The hottest little bunch of guys I've ever seen, and if they were pulling all the things off that they were trying, well, which they probably will be doing in 12 months time, it is going to be pretty far out surfing. The incredible flow that they can get in the power- pockets of this junky surf, pieces of power scattered everywhere and they were running between the bits of power and bouncing off it. Really far out!

Do you think their attitude is different to surfers say a couple a years back?

I don't think it is any different. No, I think it is just the natural change of bigger population and smaller boards, that things have changed to a more animal approach to waves. Also they have more transport and money to get around to find the waves, and the attitude now is to get in the waterand have fun and just get stoked. As I've always seen it since I first started 12 or 15 years ago, it has always been the same feeling, this getting in the water is just the same thing, it is just natural that things will develop, because you just get stale in the old manoeuvres. There's no fun doing them a hundred zillion times.  The only reason I want to get away from glassing is because it takes too long. I like to shape a board and get into the water and surf it.  want strength that's going to last you forever. I don't know about the materials of the future. I am in the dark as much as anyone else. They'll just be boards you can shape and surf immediately. Anyhow, that's a very selfish point of view 'cos I am just stoked. I just want to shape my board and go surfing. You see, when I shape 'em, I want to surf 'em right away, that's all. I've done it and so has Micky Stafford, a guy in Queensland. Russell's done it a fair bit, Russell Hughes. Well, you know normal porpoise take off in body-surfing. You take off and keep your head underwater, then you burst through and ride the wave, well, instead of bursting through to the surface, you stay under, just keep your head pulled down and you're right over the barrel of the swell, you know, the swurl in the wave. You're riding through the stationary surface water, so the waters rushing past you all around, but your body is over the actual barrel of the swell, like there's a curved cylindrical piece in there where the power is and you're arched over that, just wrapped over it like a porpoise, and you can angle and get hot rides. But I think you could do a lot better if you had a wetsuit with fins on it, because it would enable you to steer and guide yourself a little better and give you a foil shape too because you had a wetsuit, and you have a helmet so you can look around like a plastic dome. Then you could have a lung around your neck, which packs out your shoulders, you know, that would give you a foil shape. Then a rubber suit tapering back and down to your legs, just like the same shape as a porpoise. Then you have fins where your hands and feet were, and you could really control under there and you could swim a lot better too. You could do the whole thing underwater, just swim out like on the surface then you soon take off on the wave and start breathing off the lung. Can you imagine riding the Bower on a 20' day? You could ride Keanea Pt. like that, because you could survive any drop, you could go over the falls and free fall and just enter at the bottom and stay underwater. You know, you could ride any place like that. You could ride Sunset like it, the Bower like it, you could ride anywhere. The sensation would Be incredible! Other things you could do, you could have a surf bus or a sled, a toboggan would be incredible in the water. Two or three guys out on a toboggan and sitting down with a paddle on their knees, and just have handles and steer it through the waves, you could ride 10' or 15' waves 'cos you could have the low centre of gravity and the weight, you know. You can get an incredible power out of your turns and you can do incredible re-entries and, if you get wiped out, have seat belts to keep yourself on and if you get wiped out you don't lose it, your body drags it. Eventually, if you had big enough waves, you could have a bus and take tourists out. A plastic bus with a motor in it and everyone sits there and just rolls through these giant pipes going to Sunset and tube the tourists. That would be incredible in a plastic bus, plastic bus ride. 'Cos the local Hawaiians might crack up a little to see this giant bus come through through the middle of a Sunset peak. The population of the world, white skin and their cigars and cameras around their necks. It would be incredible, I mean, they're fifti boy! They're like the scenery. Oh, you'll love it! They think they're looking at the scenery but they are The Scenery. Q. How do you think surfers are handling the pretty screwed up situation in the States right now Oh! I can just see, there's this bunch of young guys, hot kids, Hackman and ah . . I don't know, I can't mention names, but they're just a whole pack of hot guys who are copping it sweet. They just understand what's going on around them, all the insanity and they're just riding waves in amongst it all and just appreciating it. They're just grooving over. It's the same everywhere, you can see it happening out here. You can see the way Australia's going. It's the way we're selling out to the Yanks, they're digging holes in the country and selling. Australia's just about wrecked, like we've sold out to the Yanks, stomach ulcers everywhere in Sydney and there's still kids out here grooving on it. Surfers are the mostest, cleanest bunch of people in the world I reckon. Anywhere people that surf a lot are just the cleanest minded, you know, they're just the most turned on people, apart from natives and so on in jungles, but I guess they're much closer to it than we are. But in the western civilization, surfers are the most hit people I've ever counted or read about. The magazines in America are the most screwed things, just like most of the people. I know the whole thing in America is pretty screwed, just because the population is so thick. Seversons' full of ulcers, he's not a surfer, he's just locked in, you know.  In the city, it's pretty hard to see the truth through all that smog. But you know, stomach ulcers are hitting Australia along with all the other diseases that man brought with him. The ultimate solution is when God sweeps the world away from us and it is all cleansed ready for our return. You know, I think Man has ended his day on earth. Yeah! Fine! Crash! It's the end, but it's not the end really, it's only the end of this era, this day. There will be a better day and we'll all be allotted our certain positions. We'll be back and do it again

What type of material will manufacturers use in the future?

For boards — I don't know. Well — plastics are really going a long way. I'd be stoked to see a board you could shape and not bother glassing. There must be some incredible new foam they could use, maybe you could shape it and dip it in a vat of resin and it goes off in twenty minutes. A super-hard foam could do it as long as it was shapeable, not a tough foam, but a strong, brittle foam, you know.

That's good foam, but you still got to glass it.

I like to shape it on the beach and get in the water straight away.

Within an hour; — do you think this will come?

Oh year! Incredible! I don't know that this will be necessary, maybe we will reach a shape that does everything soon, like George's and he's had the same board for 5 years virtually and his same shape has satisfied him for 5 years, so maybe we can get to a shape that we haven't got to keep changing, then this whole idea of mine will just be rat-shit. Then you'll just

Bob McTavish

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